Show notes

01:22 - Tell us about yourself and your coding journey

04:13 - What are the most common programming languages used in game development?

04:50 - What resources did you use to learn those languages?

07:02 - What’s the tech interview process like? The same or are there differences?

09:54 - How did you learn the mathematical side of all this?

11:22 - Difference b/w 2-D & 3-D games

12:32 - What’s the most fun game you’ve ever made?

18:40 - What advice would you give to someone interested in learning more about game development?

20:30 - Are there free resources for learning game dev?

25:09 - Where can we find you on the internet?

26:47 - Shoutouts

Resources

Transcript

We provide transcripts for all of our episodes. You can find them here!

Emma 0:00
This week we’re talking all things game development. Joining us today is Ariana radowsky, a software engineer with a super cool job. We’ll be discussing what a career in game development is like the skills needed to become a game developer, and advice for getting into game development. Let’s get started.

Unknown Speaker 0:20
Welcome to the ladybug podcast. I’m Kelly. I’m Allie. And I’m Emma. And we’re debugging the tech industry.

Kelly 0:28
AWS implies a suite of tools and services that enables developers to build full stack server lists and cloud based web and mobile apps using their framework or technology of choice on the front end. Using amplify you can quickly get up and running with things like hosting authentication, managed graph qL server list functions, API’s, machine learning, chat, boss and storage for files like images, videos and PDFs amplifiers built especially in a way to enable traditionally front end developers like myself to be successful because they can use their existing skill set to build real world full stack apps that in the past would require deep knowledge around backend DevOps and scalable infrastructure. The amplify console vent allows you to use the GitHub repository deployed globally available CDN with ci NCD built in, learn more, visit AWS dash amplify github.io. The welcome around and we’re super excited to have you today especially because I personally know nothing about Game Dev, but it sounds really neat. So could you just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your coding journey? Absolutely. Hello. So I started coding. At this point about five years ago. This was a career change for me. Before I started developing, I was in vet med. I worked as a vet tech for a long time I studied biology. my undergrad was in biology, but I started taking an intro to coding course, while I was working at an animal shelter, and I got addicted. for lack of better words, I got really into it. I really liked how early education in code development uses games as a way to teach, you know, small practices of code and it kind of just stuck I guess, I have

Arianna 2:00
been like a Gamer Girl my entire life, but I really liked the development process and latched on very quickly. That’s amazing. I also started in biology, which is funny because like, I was like, Oh, I’m gonna be a doctor. It’s gonna be great. And then I realized I was I just was really bad at it, but also a lot of fun. It’s funny how many people start in biology? Yeah, I like the pattern development, pattern recognition and programming. It’s great. My journey started in night courses. But soon I decided to enroll in grad school. That was my journey. I thought it would be the quickest way to enter a new career quickly and I already felt like there was a little behind the game. And I loved my program is very fast paced intensive. And I think it’s set me up for job prospects pretty well. That’s awesome. Where your night courses was, what kind of program was it Java. Java was the first language that it was learning. It was a certificate program. I ended up not completing the certificate because I wasn’t enjoying the entire like scope of the process there. I wanted to die.

into game development very quickly. And that’s what I did. It seems to me that game development has so many skill sets that are so specific to that industry that you don’t see in other forms of technology sometimes. So I really wanted to make sure I was getting everything I could.

Emma 3:17
Could you elaborate on that? Because I would love to know, I actually was going to ask you that question. So you let me right into it.

Arianna 3:21
I would say the number one thing that has been, the biggest thing for me is graphics, graphics engineering is very interesting. It’s a lot of, so there’s the aesthetic part of it, you want to make sure that everything is being placed correctly, you’re layering it correctly, but it’s also heavily heavily optimized. So you need to have a good eye. But also you need to know that all of your memory is being used efficiently. You are not repeating, you know, lists and your code, things like that.

Ali 3:51
Oh, wow. That sounds really really mathematical.

Arianna 3:53
Absolutely. data structures, things like that are a lot more fun to pick up when you’re learning through It’s a lot easier to worry about memory management of like game objects and sprites and pictures of bunnies or butterflies or little aliens instead of like I’m, you know, repeating student code or something like that.

Ali 4:13
What languages do you use most often for game to game development?

Arianna 4:18
Sure. At work, I mostly use C sharp. I know a lot of games are written in C sharp. c++ is another one that I’ve been working with a lot. Most of my courses in school were with c++. But really any sort of technology that can lend itself to an interactive environment you can make a game out of Java is very commonly used. Minecraft is written in Java. That’s my favorite example to use. Everyone knows Minecraft. But I mean, you can make a game environment on a website. Of course, I know. You can make a game with anything really. It’s crazy what people will do.

Ali 4:50
Awesome. What resources did you use to learn those languages? I’m so curious because I know I’m bajillion resources for learning like JavaScript or something like that. But I know nothing about learning c++. How did you learn that? I guess

Arianna 5:03
the first thing that got me started was an intro to making mods with Minecraft book that I bought at Barnes and Noble. I read it on paper, it was crazy. That was my first way of getting started. But really anything online will be a good resource for you.

Emma 5:20
Can I ask a stupid question, please? What are mods mods? So it’s like my vacations. Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, you even use the like, shorten words. Like I used a mod when I played the Sims. Like I just always like make my son’s really rich shorter. Like, you know I am. It’s a similar thing.

Arianna 5:36
Are you talking about rosebud? Yeah, absolutely.

Ali 5:39
Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. That’s such a throwback.

Arianna 5:42
We are hardcore gamers. I can tell.

Emma 5:45
Do I still play The Sims? Absolutely. Yes.

Arianna 5:49
It’s more fun to control somebody else’s life sometimes.

Emma 5:52
Do you started with the book? And then what online resources did you use? Was there a specific platform you found to be really useful?

Arianna 5:58
So I found some For me, the biggest way to learn was just to dive in and start making stuff. I’m definitely a hands on learner and I started using a platform called openframeworks. I definitely have to shout out openframeworks I really love it open source code. It’s a toolkit, small game engine that you can use small game engine, it’s hyper powerful. It’s wonderful. The online community is very, very good. However, there are so many different game engines out there that I think the best thing that you can do is just dive in, start doing tutorials. Unity has a lot of great tutorials for 2d and 3d games. The Unreal Engine is also jam packed with all sorts of learning content online. But if you want to start with more of like a software code based Introduction to Game Development, I would highly recommend starting with openframeworks shout out

Emma 6:50
and it’s open source to Okay, that’s awesome. Yeah, we’re definitely gonna link that in the show notes. So if you’re interested, please check that out. I’m like totally fascinated, and I have a zillion questions. So just bear With me, yeah, I’m still on the process here. So like, what was the technical interview process? Like? Was it just simply like c++ coding challenges? Or was there something that pertains specifically to Game Dev to

Arianna 7:10
so it is very much whiteboard, you know, you stand in front of a room of men with your marker and the whiteboard, and they’re just launching questions that you so any question that you would get in any other technical interview will definitely apply. But also things like 3d geometry, vector math, one of my questions, the company I worked for right now does casino and lottery games, I work on slot games. And one of the questions was design a slot game. How would you program this from start to finish? And I was like, I cannot believe that. I did not prepare for a question like this, but let’s do it. So a question like that is a little bit less code based or drawing more like UML diagrams, things like that. It’s fun. Yeah. I really like working on slide games. Yeah,

Emma 7:53
I was just gonna say you mentioned slot games. You kind of passed over that real fast. This is super interesting. I want to know more. Do you get to go to the casinos in Vegas, do you get to do user research sessions at casinos? Tell me more.

Arianna 8:04
That is not me. I’m more of the engineer. However, I do like to look into that stuff. You got to get into the player mindset when you’re making these games. I love that in my capacity. I am the engineer. I collaborate with everyone. I put it all together. But the team that I’m working on is a team of designers, mathematicians, very specifically mathematicians who are making like, slot math. It’s very fun gambling.

Emma 8:33
We’ve got been asked, like, do you use the machines like when you like, have you ever gone to a casino and you like, you sit in a slot machine? You’re like, yeah, I built this. Like, yeah, I know how this works. Like, do you let me I’m gonna ask you Really? Yeah. Like, do you know how to cheat the system? Like, I guess lots there’s nothing to it. But like in terms of algorithms, like

Arianna 8:49
no one’s ever asked me if I know how to cheat the system. Can you

Emma 8:53
tell us your secrets?

Arianna 8:54
Like No, no secrets? I have looked through a lot of the code and no, there are no secret hacks. No easter eggs.

I wish if I knew them, I would not be working anymore. I would be running away rich somewhere. True? No If I had secrets, also, I wouldn’t be sharing them here. I’d keep them for myself and tell us but no and, and I know very specifically that there are no secret hacks or cheats or anything because these games are so thoroughly tested. We have in our small engineering group we have, like in team engineers, there’s that process then it goes over to full QA engineers. And then after that, it goes to laboratory testing. So it gets tested by the government. Oh, wow. Wow. Because Thank you, these these games need to pay out exactly how they’re supposed to they’re set at you know, this game will pay out 86%. If you configure with this setting, or 96%, somewhere around there, and they have to do that. That’s wild,

Ali 9:54
huh? So we keep talking about the mathematical side of all this program and I’m so interested because Self teaching programming is one thing. Did you self teach the mathematical side of this as well? Or did you learn all that in school, so

Arianna 10:09
that is more of like an applied thing that is given to me from the mathematicians. They decide how the game will run. The patterns and the features are all designed by the mathematicians. We get just a little text document, and it’s up to the engineers to make sure that the game follows that logic, I guess. It’s almost like it’s more of a logic thing than math thing on my side of it. I’m given the numbers and I make sure that they crunch together correctly and put out the right numbers. And we have math testers specifically who are making sure that it’s paying out exactly what it should be paying out. I have not worked or played with slot games before starting this career path. And, man, I’m seriously obsessed right now. There.

Emma 10:52
That’s like their goal, though.

Unknown Speaker 10:54
Yeah, I know.

Arianna 10:57
They’re not designed with addiction in mind. That Certainly not. It’s just funny. Yeah,

Emma 11:02
yeah, it’s a different style of gaming. I mean, what do you think about it too, like social media applications are also slot machine type, like honey is addictive.

Arianna 11:10
There are so many video games out there that you are gambling on. But you’re not getting anything back. I mean, loot boxes, things like that so many people invest so much money in games. It’s nice to win something back once in a while, right?

Emma 11:22
Absolutely. Yeah, I want I want to know more about like you had mentioned 2d and 3d games. Like, what’s the difference when you’re building them out? Which one do you prefer? Just give us all the dirt

Arianna 11:32
math. Math is the big one. I so I’m an engineer. I don’t have the art skills really to do any 3d modeling, create things like that. So anything I’m working with is pretty much temporary art unless I have an artist with me. So like I’m talking side projects as well. I personally love 2d games, I just think they’re fine. I think it’s a fun way to approach art. 3d games are also very fun, but the math is a little bit more intensive because you’re you’ve got a whole extra dimension to worry about, you know, shout out again to openframeworks for being able to handle both of those things. When you think about 2d game development, it is actually 3d. It’s just that you are looking at it with an orthographic perspective. So you’re only looking in one direction. So if you can think of like a, like Paper Mario, if you were to flip it on its side, you would be able to see it in a three dimensional space.

Emma 12:24
I just, I’m like processing all this information. And maybe this is like an area I’d never even thought about. And I have so many questions. I just don’t know where to start. I guess like, what’s the most fun game you’ve ever made? Oh, wait, we work on slot machines.

Arianna 12:37
I do. And for purposes of non disclosure, I can’t really share too much about them.

I guess you don’t want to drive to the casino.

Most fun game I’ve ever made. I’m gonna Okay, this is gonna be silly, but it’s it’s a school project and it’s not one that I designed. we recreated Space Invaders at school. And that was God how I learned all of my design patterns probably. So the sprites would move across the stage or the the scene, little marching sprites, and then you shoot them and then they disappear. But I would say the development process was the most fun part of it playing it, it. It plays like Space Invaders. But I don’t know. That’s the thing about video game development. I enjoy the process of making the game. I love the game loop. I think it’s really elegant code. And then when you once finally get to play it, it’s like, Alright, that was fun. Let’s move on to the next thing.

Emma 13:33
That’s super fun. That reminds me like when I was in school, and we did two things. So it was with Java again. I’ve just tried to push this out of my mind because I hate Java. It’s fine. And we had to recreate Ticket to Ride. And if you’ve ever played that game, it’s fun until you have to build it and code is like a college sophomore. And you’re like, I have no idea what I’m doing. Yeah, um, so it was like my first game dev, I put it in air quotes because I was Wouldn’t even I was I did it, I did it terribly. And then the second one was, I think it was like for a data structures class and I had to recreate basically like a tic tac toe kind of game. I guess that I made it Star Wars themed and so all the little like, the little squares were Death Stars and you had like Darth Vader has versus like Yoda or something. And they had like, lightsaber noises is really fun. That was fun. That was like my first real attempt at a game.

Arianna 14:23
So I liked that you took a game structure that everyone knows and loves, and you basically just applied new art to it. You cloned a game, that’s beautiful. Right now I’m working on a little pinball game. And like I said, I’m not an artist. I don’t have the sprites for it. So I just went online. I went to Instagrams page, I stole all of their art. And I have this little pinball game that when you hit the bumper, it’s like an Instagram like, like heart that pops up. I’ve got little pinball noises. I’m going to work on that. flush it out a little more. It won’t be shipped. It’s not going anywhere. It’s just going to sit on my computer, but it’s these little development practices that are really fun for me.

Ali 14:58
Yeah, and a little bit of For the listeners, so even if you’re not interested in going into game development, recreating games is a really difficult challenge that makes you use a lot of the things that you don’t normally use in web development, like the data structures, algorithms, all of that fits really nicely into building games. So if you’re looking for something to practice your skills on, I always recommend building games because there’s so much more challenging than a standard website usually. So

Arianna 15:25
tremendous advice. Yeah, and so good on your portfolio to during all my interviews, they’re going to want to see that you’re able to make a game from beginning to end. They don’t care what the game is. They don’t care about your cool idea for a cool storyline. As the engineer you’re not here to design the game you’re here to execute. So if you can recreate Space Invaders, boom, you did it. If you can recreate a tic tac toe environment, that’s something to show and you certainly should have something like that on your portfolio going in.

Emma 15:54
That’s a great, a great like piece of advice for anyone like if you like your job is Focus, like you said, on the design of things, I create something that’s already existing, and maybe put a personal flair on it to like, you know, change the theme up. But I feel like with Game Dev, there’s so many things that we don’t even think about in WebDAV, for example, so like needing sound, sound files, or like, I don’t know, what would you say like motion graphics, or like graphics in general, like journalists need to be moving? Sure animation, you can almost compare it to filmmaking in some ways. So I was going to do that. I didn’t know if that was like, naive of me to say out loud, but I was curious if like some of your skills could transfer into filmmaking at some point, certainly not as a software engineer, but maybe like, how would that transfer?

Arianna 16:39
So that’s a great question. These skills have given me the opportunity to work on so many different projects I played around with audio visual effects, a lot of visual effects for music shows, things like that, and it’s pretty much a game environment. I like it to respond real time with the music. Real Time is a key word we use a lot. Basically, it’s a So much math is happening every single frame, you know, this skills really transfer everywhere. It’s amazing. So if I don’t want to stay in game development forever, I think I’ll certainly have something to do.

Emma 17:11
I mean, when we talk about performance and optimization, we we have another episode on, like algorithms and data structures, but I have to imagine in Game Dev, like you really got to understand performance and how that like with all that heavy computation that you’re doing that must have some terrible implications on your on your runtime if it’s not optimized.

Arianna 17:31
Yeah, if it’s not running 60 FPS, I mean, why even bother? Is the mindset you I mean, there’s so much matrix multiplication, happening every second of the game that it’s almost ruined video games for me if I pick up my Xbox controller, and I start playing Red Dead Redemption, I have to put it down because I’m like, there’s just so much math happening right now. And I’m just thinking too hard about it.

Emma 17:51
Yeah, it’s like when we visit websites, we’re overly critical of like, Oh my gosh, like I hate the animation on this are like their consulars probably play Like all these games, do you What games do you enjoy playing? And do you always criticize them?

Unknown Speaker 18:04
I like the Sims.

Arianna 18:07
I love them. Um, no, I pretty much just pick up one game and I’ll play that for six years and not touch anything else lately, it’s been Red Dead Redemption because I just like to ride horses around the countryside, and look at birds. So that’s a very calming game for me.

Emma 18:23
I’m very confused because the name sounds really like violent. It is a violent game.

Unknown Speaker 18:27
Yeah, I play

Emma 18:32
like riding horses.

Unknown Speaker 18:33
It’s basically like Barbie horse adventure

Unknown Speaker 18:37
with guns if you want it, but I don’t play that way.

Ali 18:40
What advice would you give to somebody who’s interested in transitioning into game development?

Arianna 18:45
advice for someone getting interested in game development would absolutely be to jump right in but also not to limit yourself when it comes to education. I don’t recommend going to school for everyone. However, I really I loved it. I went into school having some experience already making little things. But also I really needed the guidance. It was really nice having peers and colleagues, who had already been in the game industry who had some insight into the skills that I should be picking up things to maybe leave behind. I thought for a little while I wanted to do game development, but also full stack development. So I was trying to juggle all these different things. I was trying to learn web development. And I think it was really nice to focus in on my optimization, focus in on data structures, things like that. However, this applies everywhere. But my biggest advice to someone learning more about game development is just make a game figure out what worked, what didn’t work. What did you need to learn about and learn more about that? I must maybe I missed this but you have a master’s degree is your master’s in Game Dev? That’s correct.

Emma 19:53
Yeah. It’s and what was your bachelor’s in Integrative Biology?

Unknown Speaker 19:58
Okay, the overlap is what I don’t know.

Emma 20:00
I think that’s super interesting to hear. Because you get a lot of people who want to switch into programming. And they’re tentative about it, because maybe they don’t have like a bachelor’s and the related field. And this is genuinely living proof that you don’t need one, or while. Yeah, I’m sure your master’s degree definitely helps. And I’m not so sure. Because I haven’t actually checked this out. I can’t imagine that there’s as much information online for game development specifically, maybe there is maybe there’s a whole niche area of that I haven’t seen as web dev because web dev is one that’s super easy to find something. Like if I googled like, learn Game Dev, how are there free resources for learning?

Arianna 20:37
Um, I would say yes, I tend to to go through textbooks a lot. They haven’t studied this, you should see my office. It’s just like a stack of textbooks that I’ve read half of them then they’re all dog eared posted notes in them. The thing about game development is you’re learning gameplay, learning how to make a game like if you complete this mission, go on to this bunch of ALS checks, things like that, but Also game engine development is something that’s very, very important. You have to make sure that we’ve talked about optimization a lot. Your graphics engine is running to the best of its ability. So if you have excessive gameplay, your engine can handle that.

Emma 21:13
It sounds like you really have to love math to get into this field. Kind of.

Arianna 21:18
Yeah. Math, math and logic for sure.

Emma 21:20
Yeah, I was gonna say like, I feel day to day I use a lot of my logical math skills, but not so much like my, what I would denote is like calculus or other types of what would you call that like hard math versus like logic math, I’m not sure.

Arianna 21:35
I like to compare it sometimes to Sudoku. If y’all ever play Sudoku, there are nine numbers, but those numbers mean nothing. They could be symbols, shapes, anything at all, but it’s the arrangement and the logic in placement that is very interesting and the most important, I can’t say that I’m crunching hard numbers in my brain every single day. I pull up a calculator to do very simple addition. It’s very embarrassing. I hide do that on my Coworkers Yes.

Emma 22:02
I’m like, give me an automata. Like, oh, I’ll you know, I’ll do that one. But I can’t add like, every time I gotta add like seven to any other number, I’m liquid

Arianna 22:10
witness sevens a pretty tough number. It’s right in the middle. It’s it is are there. Yeah. But at the same time, I feel like I’m whipping out these algorithms, you know, just putting variables in place of numbers. It’s just like Sudoku. And the algorithm gets very long and interesting, but it is math at the very bottom of it.

Emma 22:32
I just want to say like, I loved your analogy, because I found that to be super relatable. I never thought about that construct of like, using Sudoku as a template for analogies of doesn’t really matter what the numbers are. They’re, they’re essentially meaningless. It’s what goes in the boxes. I play a lot. I was gonna say that’s like mind blowing for me to hear. So it seems like math is or at least liking math is something you’re gonna want to, to already you’re gonna want to love that if you’re going to short field it’s gonna

Arianna 23:00
requirement. I feel like I always to get around it. Yeah. However, there were a lot of 3d geometry courses in my time that were so hard, but I was using calculators during during it, it was it was more of a logical leap, you have to make sure that if you’re adding these two vectors, it’s giving you what you actually want. I don’t want to see that you can add the two vectors. That’s great. Anyone could do that. But like, why did you do that? Is that the number that you wanted? Is that the angle that you want it? Or is it just an arbitrary thing? Do you

Emma 23:28
think storytelling plays into your role at all? Or is that all up to the designers?

Arianna 23:31
It’s It’s not my role, but man, it’s it’s something that I love and appreciate about game development in the game industry so much. I think it’s such an interesting, interesting medium to tell a story. It’s an art form. It really is, and I’m so lucky to be a part of it. I like that I can work with artists and put their ideas into motion, make it happen.

Emma 23:55
I guess my other like question about the processes. What is your typical handoff look like? Because we There’s so much more than just like a design mock up they can give you like, how do they tell the story to you? How do they tell you what logic you need to implement.

Arianna 24:06
There are a lot of iterations, a lot of going back and forth, the slack channels popping off non stop, you know, but we will work with temporary art until art gets refined will work with temporary music. In the office, we if the engineers are waiting for an artist to deliver something, we will make temp art and its place and that usually speeds along the process because nobody likes to. We have ATMs, big machines just sitting and waiting to be tested upon. So if we throw a game up on the machine, with programmer art, so like a Microsoft Paint picture of a dragon, things like that, that’s kind of the joke around the office. That speeds up the process quite a bit. But the handoff process, it’s not just one moment, it’s back and forth, until the final moment of shipment. And at that point, it’s been so heavily tested that no more iterations are needed.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
Awesome.

Ali 25:01
Well, I feel like I’ve learned a ton about game development over the course of this.

Unknown Speaker 25:07
Yeah, this has been really, really cool.

Arianna 25:09
So are you Where can we find you on the internet? I’m on Twitter as Ariana radowsky and Instagram as well. I like to share little images and videos of stuff that I’m jamming on. That’s a ri na RUDAW sk I my Eastern European name.

Unknown Speaker 25:29
throwing people for a loop is awesome.

Emma 25:31
Yeah, well definitely like our Ariana accounts down in the show notes as well. This has been one of the most fascinating interviews I’ve ever been in. I’m like, I’m sitting here thinking like, I wonder if like the Sims team is hiring. I don’t think I can you imagine like working on the Sims is your day job. Like

Arianna 25:49
you know I think about it all the time. Like if they needed any testers.

Emma 25:54
I’m avail I was gonna say to the testers just get to play the games all day, truly,

Unknown Speaker 25:58
but then it’s not fun anymore. You’re just playing the same part of the game over and over looking for a bug. It kind of kills it for you

Emma 26:05
at this point my life I’m kind of like a right Game Dev tester, weight Game Tester, Game Tester. Also be think about like board game testers. That must be a fun job, too. I’m going on tangent

Arianna 26:15
app. No, absolutely. And these are really, if you’re a developer, and you don’t see yourself working in a career path, like I am, like actually making the games QA is so so important and very fun. And you need just as much understanding of logic and math. It’s a love hate relationship with my testers because they’re trying to break my code, you know, but uh,

Emma 26:35
yeah, it’s necessarily fun. That’s awesome. Like, why is this dragon breathing water? I don’t understand. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 26:40
like ariano

Unknown Speaker 26:42
or what did you do to this? Exactly,

Emma 26:44
no, this is this has been super fascinating. Um, I want to just kind of wrap things up here with some shout outs like cool things are cool people or you know, whatever you want to shout out. This is your time. I’m going to turn it over to you Ariana first. Is there someone or something like you just want to give a shout out to I want to give

Arianna 27:00
Shout out to I’m not gonna name names but all my professors from school this conversation has kind of brought to light like how critically important they were to me. It’s nice talking to someone with the industry experience that you’re trying to get yourself. Shout out my professors.

Emma 27:16
What program did you go to?

Arianna 27:18
I went to DePaul I got, I was in the CDM building and I got a master’s in computer game development very intensive. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in game development, specifically game engine development. It was a great intensive program.

Emma 27:33
That’s awesome. Ali, what about you? Who’s your shout out for

Ali 27:36
I’m gonna shout out. Hi, Sarah. So hissers this really awesome. Graph qL real time engine for building quick things. And I have been building back ends with it, or software and so short amounts of time and it’s very cool. So shout out to Sarah.

27:57
They had representation our graph qL episode. I believe as well yeah you’re interested in learning more go check them out Jesse’s in one go listen to that. My shout out is to Scott. I can’t pronounce your last name I’m gonna just totally destroy it so I’m just as is Scott from levelup tut’s. He has an incredible platform first tutorials I’ve been bingeing like all of them, including react spring and most recently has styled components course so shout out to Scott will also link him in the show notes as well. But if you liked this episode, please tweet about it. We are going to select one Twitter to win a Smashing Magazine book each week. So if you’re interested in winning a Smashing Magazine book, which you should be excited about that because they are awesome tweet about it and we post new podcast every Monday so make sure to subscribe to be notified and leave us a review. See you next week.

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